Washburn (The Capital City Classic): November 9-11, 2012

[oleary]

Hello all,

Washburn is more than happy to host The Capital City Classic on November 9-11, 2012. You can plan on these dates. This is our weekend as of late, avoiding NCA and in front of Thanksgiving. The last few years, our tournament has also been free to all covered teams. That might need to change a bit, but the tournament fees will be very low--no more than a flat fee of $50 per squad (with covered teams). As such, and as in the past, awards will be limited, but we will have very nice awards for at least the top speaker and tournament champion individual team(s).

Like William Jewell's thread, I am interested in what kind of tournament you would like to have. We have been a swing, and it has been, IMO, grueling. Last year, finals II started around midnight on Sunday (the third day/night). But beyond swing or not, which is an important consideration, do you want topic areas (if so, how many?), two c-x periods (as last year), 30 minutes of prep time when possible (as last year), mutual pref. judging (that would require a few more judges than we have operated with in the past couple of years), double elim's, pre-announce one topic for prelim's 1 + 2 (that might void NPTE points), and so forth?

When considering, keep in mind we will have to start on Friday at 2:00 or a tad later because of classroom availability. In addition, providing much if any on-site tournament food is probably not an option for us. (There is still the foodcourt in the Union that is open on Fridays and a bit on weekends too.)

There is a strong propensity that we will move to a single tournament format. I am fairly wedded to a three-day format as opposed to a two- or four- day format. The thinking there: decent amount of rounds with a hopefully humane schedule (about 30 hours altogether for the 3 days). If you have joined us in the past, I would hope you would at least try it out once before balking.

What I am already thinking of adding for this year: email ballots and online topic announce.

k.

[darkkujah]

The Washburn tournament has consistently been one of my favorite tournaments and the glassware offered each year is sweet. Love the cross-x, think you need to retain it, also really like the double prep for rounds 1-2.

I still haven't made my mind up on the swings vs. not swings discussion, but I will say this: as a coach of one of the teams in finals of part 2, starting the debate at midnight was one of the worst experiences I have had at a tournament. The only other experience that was as bad was Washbeach a few years back when the doubles round finished at 12:30 and we had to get up at like 7 for octs the next morning.

I really really think that there should be some way of preventing finals from taking place as late as it did last year. I am open to any and all suggestions.

[Chuck]

have a swing.

[TH is Thor]

Keep the C-X and add E-ballots and online topic announce. I cannot begin to describe how much I like everything being posted online.

As for format, maybe just the opposite of of Jewell does. If they go swing, you go single 8-rounder and vice-versa. Maybe use this as an opportunity to gauge community opinion.

[KCalderwood]

Unless you rely on the tournament for part of your budget (which, it does not sound like because you do not charge for covered teams, but I do not want to assume), I think that you should do a lot of experimentation with your tournament. Maybe not even 8 prelim. Try 4 prelims and double elims, or 6 prelims and double elims.

I think you should do this independent of what other tournaments decide on- be the change you want to see KO.

[schneidmaster]

Originally Posted by Chuck

have a swing.

Ten characters

[BReid]

I'm up for whatever for the most part (though I've never been wild about double prep and have witnessed it being exploited in some pretty upsetting ways by industrious prep thieves), but CX has to stay. I tend to think it should be expanded a bit, but I'll take what Washburn offered in terms of CX happily.

Nod to Nigel--finals starting at midnight was not awesome.

[korry]

Some of this post perhaps belongs in one of the other threads happening right now, but it's kind of reached the point where they're all a bit interrelated, so whatevs...

While I can certainly understand some of the reasons some programs prefer swings (particularly for programs that really need to maximize their rounds:dollars ratio) I am generally not a fan of the proliferation of swings over the past few years. Probably the greatest incentive people have for swings is the potential to rack up extra NPTE points in a single weekend. Which seems to firmly set resolution of the matter (if any) predominantly in the hands of the NPTE board.

At the same time, schools will continue, to one degree or another, to vote with their feet. Western will most definitely send teams to Washburn regardless of what you do with the tournament. I think many other schools feel the same way, so I'd encourage experimentation. KO has been talking for some time about trying new things, and I trust his decisions will be made with the best interests of the community in mind. Same goes for Jewell-- we are going to be there regardless of what changes are made, and I think many others are in the same boat. Same for GSL, Mile High, etc.

To repeat... the NPTE board is a significant gatekeeper here-- I am not in any way saying that they are sitting on their hands, as I know for a fact that they are having serious conversations about this stuff-- just that most of the things being talked about on these boards will realistically be determined in large part by their decisions, just b/c of how important NPTE points have become to everyone. Fortunately I have a great deal of trust in the folks on the board at the moment. Even if they reach a decision that not everyone is happy with, I know they will make every effort to do what they think is the greatest good for the greatest number.

Finally, I'm not completely against swings, as I think there are valuable elements to them as well. I'm concerned about two things-- the proliferation in the overall number of swings, and the number of swings with topic areas (and the number of topic tournaments in general). As I have said before, IMO the pendulum has swung a little too far and needs a little balancing. My own background is in policy debate, with a single (or two) yearlong topic, and I love the depth of knowledge and quality of debates that come with that. But that cannot be replicated by having 4-6 topic areas (each with 3-5 subtopic areas) and only 3-4 weeks to digest them, and often times overlapping time between one or more tournaments. I think we've reached a point of diminishing returns. Besides, parli has something wonderful of it's own going on that we should embrace. And again, that is not a call to abandon topic areas (I like them!), just a call for a return to greater balance.

[oleary]

Hello all,

Here is a tentative schedule for the Washburn fall tournament to mull over and see if there are any mistakes (any help is much appreciated). This builds in 25 minutes of prep time per round as well as 2 two-minute c-x's per round. I've tried to be very explicit, and you can see the immense amount of time it takes to get 19 rounds off over three days. We intend to post the pairings and resolutions online and on-time. We intend to use email ballots as well. We are up-in-the-air about topic areas and MPJ.

We would all need to work together to make this schedule happen on time, and we're still looking at very long days.

If the NPTE changes its points system, the schedule may well change. If it doesn't, we may still offer just one 6-7 prelim round tournament, so this is not set in stone by any stretch. I did want to get it out there to see what y'all think, though. Thanks!

Friday, November 9
1:30 Registration in Morgan Hall 266

2:00 Pairings for Round 1
2:10 Round 1 resolution posted online and prep time begins
2:35 Round 1 PMC begins
3:19 Round 1 ends
3:40 Round 1 ballots due

3:50 Pairings for Round 2
4:00 Round 2 resolution posted online and prep time begins
4:25 Round 2 PMC begins
5:09 Round 2 ends
5:30 Round 2 ballots due

Dinner @ Memorial Union (closes at 6:00 p.m.)
(Round 3 at 6:00 p.m.)

6:00 Pairings for Round 3
6:10 Round 3 resolution posted online and prep time begins
6:35 Round 3 PMC begins
7:19 Round 3 ends
7:40 Round 3 ballots due

7:50 Pairings for Round 4
8:00 Round 4 resolution posted online and prep time begins
8:25 Round 4 PMC begins
9:09 Round 4 ends
9:30 Round 4 ballots due

9:45 Pairings and flips for Double octafinals
10:00 Double octafinals resolution posted online and prep time begins
10:25 Double octafinals PMC begins
11:09 Double octafinals ends
11:30 Double octafinals ballots due

Saturday, November 10
8:55 Pairings and flips for Octafinals
9:15 Octafinals resolution posted online and prep time begins
9:40 Octafinals PMC begins
10:24 Octafinals ends
10:45 Octafinals ballots due

11:00 Pairings and flips for Quarterfinals
11:15 Quarterfinals resolution posted online and prep time begins
11:40 Quarterfinals PMC begins
12:24 Quarterfinals ends
12:45 Quarterfinals ballots due

If you participated in Quarterfinals, Lunch @ Memorial Union
(Round 1 at 1:30 p.m.)

1:30 Pairings for Round 1
1:40 Round 1 resolution posted online and prep time begins
2:05 Round 1 PMC begins
2:49 Round 1 ends
3:10 Round 1 ballots due

3:20 Pairings for Round 2
3:30 Round 2 resolution posted online and prep time begins
3:55 Round 2 PMC begins
4:39 Round 2 ends
5:00 Round 2 ballots due

5:10 Pairings for Round 3
5:20 Round 3 resolution posted online and prep time begins
5:45 Round 3 PMC begins
6:29 Round 3 ends
6:50 Round 3 ballots due

Dinner provided for REMAINING FIRST-HALF participants
(Semifinals at 7:30 p.m.)

7:30 Pairings and flips for Semifinals
7:40 Semifinals resolution posted online and prep time begins
8:05 Semifinals PMC begins
8:49 Semifinals ends
9:10 Semifinals ballots due

9:20 Pairings and flips for Finals
9:25 Finals resolution posted online and prep time begins
9:50 Finals PMC begins
10:34 Finals ends
10:50 Finals ballots due

Sunday, November 11
9:00 Pairings for Round 4
9:10 Round 4 resolution posted online and prep time begins
9:35 Round 4 PMC begins
10:19 Round 4 ends
10:40 Round 4 ballots due

10:50 Pairings for Round 5
11:00 Round 5 resolution posted online and prep time begins
11:25 Round 5 PMC begins
12:09 Round 5 ends
12:30 Round 5 ballots due

If you are going to participate in Double octafinals, Lunch @ Memorial Union
(Double octafinals at 1:15 p.m.)

1:15 Pairings and flips for Double octafinals
1:30 Double octafinals resolution posted online and prep time begins
1:55 Double octafinals PMC begins
2:39 Double octafinals ends
3:00 Double octafinals ballots due

3:15 Pairings and flips for Octafinals
3:35 Octafinals resolution posted online and prep time begins
4:00 Octafinals PMC begins
4:44 Octafinals ends
5:05 Octafinals ballots due

5:20 Pairings and flips for Quarterfinals
5:35 Quarterfinals resolution posted online and prep time begins
6:00 Quarterfinals PMC begins
6:44 Quarterfinals ends
7:05 Quarterfinals ballots due

Dinner provided for REMAINING SECOND-HALF participants
(Semifinals at 7:30 p.m.)

7:30 Pairings and flips for Semifinals
7:40 Semifinals resolution posted online and prep time begins
8:05 Semifinals PMC begins
8:49 Semifinals ends
9:10 Semifinals ballots due

9:20 Pairings and flips for Finals
9:25 Finals resolution posted online and prep time begins
9:50 Finals PMC begins
10:34 Finals ends
10:50 Finals ballots due

k.

[Corax]

Kevin,

This is Will Gent from UPS. I appreciate your willingness to experiment with debate format and try out new things. Just wanted to add my two cents on a (relatively minor) issue.

Like Ben, I think you should consider adding additional CX times. This might just be the policy debater in me, but I felt like limiting cross-ex to two periods resulted in a couple of problems:

1. Prep skew. Under the format Washburn used last year, MG’s got 2 minutes of free prep while MO’s still had to give stand-up speeches. I have no idea how this affected aff/neg splits, but it’s something to keep in mind. Adding two additional CX periods would solve this back without drastically altering the schedule.
2. Equal opportunity CX. If cross-ex is good, then everyone should be able to participate in it. Last year’s format had a disincentive for LO/MG’s to ask questions during CX; instead I used this time to prep my upcoming speech. It would be nice if next year’s format could encourage LO/MG’s to be more engaged in cross-ex; again, adding more CX would solve that back.

Apologies if this seems overly nitpicky or is a rehash of other conversations that have occurred on here (I can’t admit to following net-bens with any frequency).

Will Gent
UPS

[The Puge]

Will Gent says he thinks the Jim Hanson-favored model of one minute cx following each of the four speech blocks (PMC, LOC, MG, MO/LOR) is best, for two reasons:

A) Prep skew - the MG gets 2 minutes to prep but the MO doesn't - means CX is far more beneficial for the aff because they get time to think out what their key tactical tricks will be, but the MO has to do so on the fly. Prep after the PMC isn't sufficient because the MO strat always hinges on MG decisions which present too many possible permutations of argument develop for the MO to predict before the speech actually happens.

B) Equal opportunity cross-x - Will's an LO/MG, which means his speeches always follow one of the CXs, which heavily disincentivizes him from asking any questions (because, since he's giving the next speech, it's a better division of labor for him to prep and his partner to ask questions). That makes him sad because he likes asking questions.

[Jim Hanson]

kevin

for your tournament, i do urge a swing format. more bang for the buck.

the schedule you've suggested looks very doable.

that said:

what about a saturday-sunday-monday schedule? you could start on saturday morning instead of 2pm on friday. since it would be just elims on monday, maybe you could get sufficient rooms for doubles starting monday morning.

1 9am, 2 11am, 3 1:30pm, 4 3:30pm, doubles 5:30pm, octas 7:30pm, quarters 9:30pm
semis 9am, finals 11am, 1 1:30pm, 2 3:30pm, 3 5:30pm, 4 7:30pm, 5 9:30pm (i guess that is kind of late)
doubles-octas on monday

[GiantsFan]

I'm such a nerd about schedules. Actually, probably didn't need the last two words of that sentence, but...

Kevin, I think the schedule is slightly ambitious in some areas and over-padded in others.

First, the over-padded. I think the time between release of pairings and topic announcement can be 5 minutes. With a single judge at a regular season tournament, 5 minutes should be enough time. To save more time, allow the computer to flip sides. The machine is actually more fair than physical flips. This would save at least 5 minutes per round or as much as 10 minutes each round.

Second, the ambitions. These round times are, IMO, tight. If you could force people onto a continuous clock, then this schedule would work. However, this schedule seems to assume 40 minutes of speaking time and 4 minutes of CX time. There is no time for prep time stealing -- ER, I MEAN -- roadmaps, which take about 1 (sometimes two) minute per speech.

Those are my initial thoughts.

[BReid]

Originally Posted by The Puge

Will Gent says he thinks the Jim Hanson-favored model of one minute cx following each of the four speech blocks (PMC, LOC, MG, MO/LOR) is best, for two reasons:

A) Prep skew - the MG gets 2 minutes to prep but the MO doesn't - means CX is far more beneficial for the aff because they get time to think out what their key tactical tricks will be, but the MO has to do so on the fly. Prep after the PMC isn't sufficient because the MO strat always hinges on MG decisions which present too many possible permutations of argument develop for the MO to predict before the speech actually happens.

B) Equal opportunity cross-x - Will's an LO/MG, which means his speeches always follow one of the CXs, which heavily disincentivizes him from asking any questions (because, since he's giving the next speech, it's a better division of labor for him to prep and his partner to ask questions). That makes him sad because he likes asking questions.

FWIW--giving more prep time to the PMR is a silly idea, and two minutes is more effective for establishing a line of questioning or actually doing something useful with CX.

[oleary]

Some revisions based on Konrad's suggestions. It is down to 2 four-round prelim tournaments both breaking to partial double octafinals. 18 rounds in 17 slots (if we can run Finals I concurrently with Double octas II). Jim, if we had rounds on Monday (Sat-Mon schedule), we'd have to wait until after 2:00 to have them on campus.

Please keep in mind: this is still very tentative. We could run 1 six-round prelim tournament in two days, on Saturday and Sunday.

Friday, November 9
1:30 Registration in Morgan Hall 266

2:00 Pairings for Round 1 (pre-set)
2:05 Round 1 resolution posted online and prep time begins
2:30 Round 1 PMC begins
3:19 Round 1 ends
3:40 Round 1 ballots due

3:40 Pairings for Round 2 (pre-set)
3:45 Round 2 resolution posted online and prep time begins
4:10 Round 2 PMC begins
4:59 Round 2 ends
5:20 Round 2 ballots due

Dinner at Memorial Union (Round 3 at 6:00 p.m.)

6:00 Pairings for Round 3
6:05 Round 3 resolution posted online and prep time begins
6:30 Round 3 PMC begins
7:19 Round 3 ends
7:40 Round 3 ballots due

7:50 Pairings for Round 4
7:55 Round 4 resolution posted online and prep time begins
8:20 Round 4 PMC begins
9:09 Round 4 ends
9:30 Round 4 ballots due

9:40 Pairings for Double octafinals I (sides assigned)
9:45 Double octafinals I resolution posted online and prep time begins
10:10 Double octafinals PMC begins
10:59 Double octafinals ends
11:20 Double octafinals ballots due

Saturday, November 10
8:55 Pairings for Octafinals I (sides assigned)
9:00 Octafinals resolution posted online and prep time begins
9:25 Octafinals PMC begins
10:14 Octafinals ends
10:35 Octafinals ballots due

10:45 Pairings for Quarterfinals I (sides assigned)
10:50 Quarterfinals resolution posted online and prep time begins
11:15 Quarterfinals PMC begins
12:04 Quarterfinals ends
12:25 Quarterfinals ballots due

Lunch at Memorial Union (Round 1 at 1:05 p.m.)

1:05 Pairings for Round 1 (pre-set)
1:10 Round 1 resolution posted online and prep time begins
1:35 Round 1 PMC begins
2:24 Round 1 ends
2:45 Round 1 ballots due

2:45 Pairings for Round 2 (pre-set)
2:50 Round 2 resolution posted online and prep time begins
3:15 Round 2 PMC begins
4:04 Round 2 ends
4:25 Round 2 ballots due

Dinner provided for all tournament participants

5:05 Pairings for Round 3
5:10 Round 3 resolution posted online and prep time begins
5:35 Round 3 PMC begins
6:24 Round 3 ends
6:45 Round 3 ballots due

6:55 Pairings for Round 4
7:00 Round 4 resolution posted online and prep time begins
7:25 Round 4 PMC begins
8:14 Round 4 ends
8:35 Round 4 ballots due

8:35 Pairings for Semifinals I (sides assigned)
8:40 Semifinals resolution posted online and prep time begins
9:05 Semifinals PMC begins
9:54 Semifinals ends
10:15 Semifinals ballots due

Sunday, November 11
8:55 Pairings for Double octafinals II and Finals I (if possible) (sides assigned)
9:00 Double octafinals and Finals resolution posted online and prep time begins
9:25 Double octafinals and Finals PMC begins
10:14 Double octafinals and Finals ends
10:35 Double octafinals and Finals ballots due

10:45 Pairings for Octafinals II (sides assigned)
10:50 Octafinals resolution posted online and prep time begins
11:15 Octafinals PMC begins
12:04 Octafinals ends
12:25 Octafinals ballots due

Lunch at Memorial Union (Round 1 at 1:05 p.m.)

1:05 Pairings for Quarterfinals II (sides assigned)
1:10 Quarterfinals resolution posted online and prep time begins
1:35 Quarterfinals PMC begins
2:24 Quarterfinals ends
2:45 Quarterfinals ballots due

2:50 Pairings for Semifinals II (sides assigned)
2:55 Semifinals resolution posted online and prep time begins
3:20 Semifinals PMC begins
4:09 Semifinals ends
4:30 Semifinals ballots due

Dinner provided for Finals II participants

4:45 Pairings for Finals II (sides assigned)
4:50 Finals resolution posted online and prep time begins
6:15 Finals PMC begins
7:04 Finals ends
7:25 Finals ballots due

k.

[mdreher]

Kevin -
1:25 for prep time for Finals II? Wow, I know you like increased prep time, but really that much?

[oleary]

How about a 3 prelim tournament with a quarters or octas break on friday (maybe we push finals off til sat or sun), also all rounds for this feature prereleased resolutions and no ban on pre-prepared args except still no quoted published material--we could run this at about an hour per rd (dropping prep time on site).

Then on sat and sun we run a sanctioned 6 rounder breaking half the field to hopefully doubles.

Thoughts?

k.

[oleary]

For friday we could have 3-4 resolutions total, each rd teams could flip and winner picks either side or res, loser the other, rd begins immediately.

k.

[darkkujah]

Interesting idea Kevin, but I think it might difficult to sort through a wide number of teams with only three rounds.

You could perhaps do it analogous to UPS and host a midwest Round Robin on Friday while also maintaining a six round tournament though that might be the opposite of what you intend.

I think bumping it up one more round would allow you to sort the field more fully while also achieving generally what you would like. You might also check out the model Jim uses for the Whitman tournament, that has generally worked pretty well. It features four rounds on Friday, five rounds on Saturday and Sunday. The benefit of what you are intending is that you don't have to schedule in IEs so you would have a bit more flexibility.

[Corax]

The dynamic of choosing side and resolution by coin flip would be somewhat different knowing the resolutions before deciding (assuming one wins the coin flip) to choose one or the other -- not sure what the implications of that are.

Allowing previously prepared arguments but no quoted material could get tricky, too. This is a problem that I think already exists at tournaments with topic areas (and even just given prep time). My inclination would be to cite sources without quoting them, but sometimes I'd rather not change the wording of the original author.

Many may balk, but it could be interesting to have a balanced swing, one half CEDA/NDT, the other half NPDA/NPTE. Thoughts?

[oleary]

Hey Nigel-the idea for 3 rds is for speed (done in a day) and to avoid being a tournament that is counted by the npte-not out of spite but since folks might want to cap at 10 there is room for some experimentation-here it is prereleased res's and pre-prepped args-opening the door for perhaps some new twists and depth while also taking about an hr ish to run a rd.

k.

[oleary]

Here is what we're thinking, any comments are appreciated:

Friday, prelim rounds 1 & 2, start 6:30 p.m.
Saturday, prelim rounds 3-7, start 8:30 a.m.
Sunday, up to 5 outrounds, start 8:30 a.m.

Open only
Flat team fee of $100 (this $100 fee covers all your covered teams)
Strikes, not mpj
Topic areas
On-time-every-time res. announce
30 min prep
C-x after each of the first two constructives
Time for judge decision/disclosure/explanation
Ballot curfew at 15 minutes before next res. announce
No lag powering for prelims 3-7
Nice awards for finalists, top speaker, I-70 cup winner

(2 hours per round: res. announce to res. announce)

k.

[RLayne]

Hey Kevin,

Are you going to a 7 round tournament instead of a swing/the schedule above?

Rob

[Chuck]

I'm in favor of swing, because its not really worth the cost for us to travel for 4 days to attend a single tournament.

[schneidmaster]

Originally Posted by Chuck

I'm in favor of swing, because its not really worth the cost for us to travel for 4 days to attend a single tournament.

Agreed (not that that's a surprise).

[Reisener]

Originally Posted by Chuck

I'm in favor of swing, because its not really worth the cost for us to travel for 4 days to attend a single tournament.

Due to the 10 tournament point cap, I am very much in favor of having Washburn be an 7-round tournament as opposed to a swing. If Jewell attended our tournament, McKendree, Washburn, and Mile High, we would be at 8 tournaments already, leaving only 2 more single tournaments to attend the rest of the year, whereas having Washburn as a 1-tournament weekend would allow us, and I suspect, quite a few other teams, to add another tournament to their schedule. Otherwise Midwest teams trying to attend all of the large regional tournaments plus Mile High are severely limited in their efforts at traveling later in the season.

[BReid]

I think the schedule looks pretty fly.

This way, we can go to Chuck's tournament without cap-concerns!

[Chuck]

as our descriptive-points-are-predictive-no-really-they-are-overlords have tole us- just opt out. again, i'm not happy with this points change reducing the number of tournaments.

[oleary]

Originally Posted by RLayne

Hey Kevin,

Are you going to a 7 round tournament instead of a swing/the schedule above?

Rob

Yes. We are leaning toward a single tournament, 7 prelim rounds. There is also an emphasis on making each round "high quality," i.e., 30 min prep, c-x, judge-participant time, no lag powering, etc., and running on schedule (resolutions will be announced at the scheduled time--there will be no roll call). By my calculations, this means 2 hours per round. As such, I don't see wanting to do more than 5 rounds a day, i.e., 10 hours plus eat/travel to and from. Under what is proposed, we have cut rounds from 20 to 12, but have pushed the tournament back sufficiently on Friday so as to allow many if not all to travel on Friday to the tournament.

k.

[kdennis]

I'm not sure if I could love this more. If it works.